Question:Has anyone here followed this plan? How did it work out for you? There are a few concerns I have about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic reduction in mileage. During the marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week. My other concern is that there is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the plan (requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your running ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?






Answer:

I have some questions and concerns concerning my curring running plan. I am now following a mileage buildup schedule from "State of the Art Marathon Training" at http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html

Here are the weekly miles: 14, 15, 16, 12, 17, 18, 20, 13, 22, 24, 26, 15, 28, 30, 32, 17, 34, 35, 19.

Here are the weekly percentage changes: +7%, +7%, -25%, +6%, +6%, +11%, -35%, +10%, +9%, +8%, -42%, +8%, +7%, + 7%, +3%, -74%, -46%.

At the end of the 19th week you continue to hold your training levels until the marathon is 4 months away. "Once you reach the 10-mile mark of your long run, you can then alternate your long run sequence weekly as follows: 8, 9, 10, and then 6-mile long runs." When your planned marathon is 4 months away, you follow the schedule at http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html

The marathon training schedule weekly miles are as follows: 34, 36, 18, 38, 41, 43, 20, 42, 38, 22, 43, 38, 24, 46, 36, 30, 22, marathon.

The weekly long runs are as follows: 10, 12, 6, 14, 16, 18, 6, 20, 14, 7, 21, 14, 8, 22, 12, 14, 10, marathon.

Has anyone here followed this plan? How did it work out for you? There are a few concerns I have about the plan. One is that the recovery weeks are a drastic reduction in mileage. During the marathon training phase the cut backs are 50% of the previous week. My other concern is that there is no speed training. I'm guessing that if you paid for the "personal training" version of the plan (requires a minimum payment of $70); Art would work in some speed training based on your running ability. Is this more of a first-time-marathoner plan?

I am 46 years old. I have run 4 marathons in the past. One a year from 1996 to 1999. I've finished in the 3:40 to 4:00 range. I took almost a 2 year layoff until August of '03. Because of the long layoff and weight gain I started back very slowly in order to avoid an injury. I am currently on week 15 of the buildup plan. My weight is less than it was before my fastest marathon. I have not made any plans for a marathon yet. However, I am considering a fall marathon (Chicago or Marine Corps) or a January '05 marathon (Houston). Should I be approaching this as a first- time-marathoner? Given my past running history, should I push it a bit and add some speed work to my training?

My interpretaion from reading the schedule is that the point of this program is to prepare someone who's undertrained for an 800m race to run a marathon.

It's not possible to get in 20 mile runs and train consistently without having some 40 mile weeks, so the only way to stay at an average of 30 miles per week or so with such a schedule is to have a lot of week-to-week variation in volume.

Keep in mind that a week is an arbitrary way to divide up time anyway, and for the purpose of marathon training, where you cycle the lengths of the long runs, it's not a very good one. Most marathon training programs are divided into microcycles consisting of 2-4 weeks.

For a runner on 14mpw and wants to run a marathon, "speed training" is not a very high priority. Note that he explains this in detail on his website.

" The information contained within this site will enable runners of all ability levels to finish a marathon comfortably and safely."

I don't run marathons, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. But anyway, this is my $0.02. (but I think deep down you know all this ...)

I'd say that this means that time is on your side. Depending on exactly what you do, you may well have a chance to build up to a consistent 40mpw before starting your marathon training program. That would put you in a better position to commence a more advanced program than this one.

And yes, I think you should look for a slightly more advanced program. You do appear to be interested in doing more than just finishing, so the design goals of this training program are not really compatible with your personal goals.

There are some more competitive marathon training programs on the Running Times (http://www.runningtimes.com) website. See their "basic" marathon training program for example (this program includes strides, tempo runs, buildup races). I can't make evaluative statements since I haven't done those programs or run marathons -- except to say that the Running Times programs look more advanced and competition-oriented than the "state of the Art" program.

This page http://www.ingnycmarathon.org/training/trainingschedule.html has some milage schedules written by Bob Glover. These cover several different levels of training. The fact that he doesn't include speed work does not mean that he doesn't recommend it. The training FAQ discusses speed work. Bob Glover has maintained respectable milage over 31 years, run several marathons and some ultras, battled all sorts of problems, and still can be seen out there with his running team -- so I respect his judgment.

Since I won't run a marathon any earlier than October, the marathon training schedule would not start until June. Until then, I can continue on my current build up plan, then continue on to the 40 mpw level and hold that for a while. Maybe incorporate some local races.

I guess I do want to do better than just finish. A sub 3:45 finish sounds like a reasonable goal. My only fear is that my motivation to achieve that goal may result in an injury. It's happened to me before.

I've looked at a few of these. In particular "An Integrated Training Program" http://tinyurl.com/2e28e.

I already have Bob Glover's book. So I'll dust it off and review it for a suitable training schedule.

A good way to incorporate some turnover work and a little speed training as well into your marathon program is to try something like 10x100m during the middle miles of some of your medium long runs... kinda like a structured fartlek. Pete Pfitzinger uses this apporach in his "Advanced Marathon Training" book.

I tried it with some success, but I believe you may be better off getting some long-ish fast runs in, like 10 - 12km at ½ marathon pace. These runs help remind you of what it's like to run fast, and helps you keep the edge, but aren't as hard on the body as a bunch of intervals at high speed.

I think the plan will get a person to the finish line and is really fairly conservative (not a bad thing).

I presume you paid nothing for this so do not expect a plan that will make you faster.

As for the reductions in volume, the plan is being conservative but not all that unusual considering the people probably interested might not be all that experienced.

If you want something more individualized, pay for it.

I had been coaching runners and often talk training with other runners; I would speak in general terms but if someone wanted specific advise, he/she needed to break out the checkbook. Do you give away the services you provide in your business?

A final thing, if you want to follow this or any plan, follow it to the best of your ability. If you go changes it around and it does not work, do not blame the program since you are not following it. I had this athlete I coached (well tried to coach) to his first marathon. I would ask for his work schedule (retail so while long hours, it was pretty well set) and send a plan fitted to the work schedule. Every month I would get back the plan with what he actually did, and he was moving workouts around willy nilly without consulting me. Now, he does not do well and potentially my name is mud since some people know that I was writing the training program (but he was not following it).

a bit of a different take, I like to do these "strides" after a run. The rationale for me is that you are better able to control things and get a full recovery. The rationale for these is the recruitment of additional "fast twitch" fibers since the "slow twitch" have fatigued.

the calendar week is not a precise thing to be looking at. Your body doesn't really know 7 days as a fundamental unit. In terms of training, 6 weeks is a good averaging period.

What the program is doing is giving you three weeks of near 10% increase, followed by a light week. The near-10% is, as we've been repeating (sometimes from the voice of sad experience), at the high end of increase. The light week is a common recommendation, though it's more usual (I think) to see it drop back to the first week of the 3 than to be more like half of the 3 weeks earlier.

I wouldn't say first-time so much as completion-focussed. As Sam was suggesting, if you want something tailored to you and your interests, it's time to break out the check book.

I'm about to do some similar retraining, and plan on taking it as a first timer. And I ran my most recent long race in October of '03. (Yes, I'm conservative, usually.)

As to speed work, I'd say that's a conversation between you and your body. Some variety is good, if only for the mental side of getting out regularly. But you don't mention what prompted the 2 year layoff. If it was medical, great conservatism is probably a good idea.

That was my concern. The 50% decrease seemed a little drastic. Maybe it's better to err on the side of caution. I think if the recovery week dropped back to the first week's mileage that wouldn't be enough recovery. It would allow me to progress faster, but with time on my side and not wanting an injury, a 30% cut back seems like a good compromise. That will satisfy my obsession while reducing the risk of injury.

I've ordered the Pete Pfitzinger book "Advanced Marathoning." Based on the reviews and the first 10 pages (viewable on Amazon), this looks like it might work for me. The title is a little missleading, since it does have a program that peeks at 55 MPW. So I've adjusted my base build up schedule to ease into the Pfitzinger program so that I can comfortably complete the first week of marathon training.

There is an article at http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/01julaug/marathon.htm that summarizes the program

A few years ago I bought Pete's book "Road Racing for Serious Runners." After following his guidelines I was able to achieve a PB in a 10K and a 5 miler (my last race before dropping out of the running scene).

I stopped running at the same time I started a new job. I was 100% committed to the job with no time for myself. I tried to make a few come- backs, but they never amounted to anything, until now. My problem - I didn't listen to Miyagi-Sensei when he said, "Go find the balance." This time, my approach was to lose the weight first while walking, then start a walk/run program, then 100% running. As running takes up more and more of my time, I'm finding the balance.

I like Advanced Marathoning; it is more in depth for the marathon training but based on the principles outlined in Road Racing for Serious Runners. It lays out a daily plan.

If you have a mileage idea that you want to use, you can adjust the plans accordingly.

Look at the programs on the Boston Marathon website. I had good luck with them as a newbie, and they can easily be extrapolated to a wide range of skill levels.

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